Gorgias Discussion Week #5

Answer this question:

Do you think people want whatever it is they're doing on any given occasion, or do they want whatever it is that what they're doing is a means towards?

Mrs. Martin wrote:Answer this question:

Do you think people want whatever it is they're doing on any given occasion, or do they want whatever it is that what they're doing is a means towards?

I think it depends on what is is they are doing. Take school for an example. Plenty of people (not all) don't want to do school/specific school subjects, but they do want a career and a good life. Well then they don't want the math/Latin/History... work but they do want what come from learning and finishing all of those things. They know that they cannot have what they want (career... whatever it may be) without doing what they don't like (school/homework) first. On the other hand I don't think that everything has to have a conclusion. Some things you just do because you enjoy them, not because you have something that you want to accomplish.

Lets take Heroin addicts for example. When they decide to stick the needle in their arm and inject themselves with the drug, they are not thinking of how in the end they are going to suffer a serious mental and physical crash, who would? They are thinking of the immediate rush the drug gives them. They are injecting right into the vain. This rush is an instant slap to the face. They and many other people are searching for "Instant Gratification." Some lesser instances would be internet. We want internet to be high-speed and accessible, and it is. We literally have it at our fingertips. When we open up safari on our Iphone's we are expecting our search to happen immediately. Have you ever noticed what happens when we don't get what we want. If the internet is slow we quickly result to anger. (or at least I do ) This could even be the instance with food. Want things as quickly as possible, with minimal work. I will use myself as an example. I cant tell you how many times I have wished that Panera would deliver to my home. The reason being I don't want to have to drive out to get it. I want something without having to put any work into it. How many of you remember the 877-cashNOW commercials...The main line was "Its my money and I want it NOW!" This just shows how demanding we all are. Now lets look at the other side of this. There are people who don't necessarily seek "Instant Gratification." After all John Heywood did say "Rome wasn't built in a day" There are people out there that know things take time. You cant wake up one day and say "Today I am going to be a forensic anthropologist" and then poof you are one. That's not how it works. It takes years of schooling, and connections to get to there. Or maybe you wake up one day and say "I am going to get a job at Publix" A little fairy doesn't appear and grant you your wish. You have to work your way there. You have to fill out an application, then get interviewed, and wait for a response. The easiest things in life will deliver "Instant gratification", however the harder things will test your endurance and will pay off in the end. To answer the question, I would say in today's society people want whatever it is they are doing on any given occasion.

sarahm wrote: Some things you just do because you enjoy them, not because you have something that you want to accomplish.  

Wouldn't doing something because you enjoy it basically be doing something as a means toward enjoyment?

Sorry if the question is a little confusing...

egrabrick wrote:

sarahm wrote: Some things you just do because you enjoy them, not because you have something that you want to accomplish.  

Wouldn't doing something because you enjoy it basically be doing something as a means toward enjoyment?

Sorry if the question is a little confusing...

Well you can have a means towards enjoyment while still expecting immediate response. Like in my example with Heroin. When people do Heroin they are doing it for a means towards enjoyment. But they are expecting it to happen instantly. They don't want to have wait some time for the drug to take affect. That is why the inject themselves right into the vain. Instantly gratifying their want.

Wouldn't doing something because you enjoy it basically be doing something as a means toward enjoyment?

Yes I guess it would be but only if your going into something with the knowledge or intentions of enjoying it. But your not always expecting enjoyment out of something. Your not necessarily thinking I'm going to listen to this music because I know I will enjoy it. You would just be listening to the music and then while listening you realize that you enjoy it. Sorry this is probably a little confusing I know what I want to say just not exactly how to say it.

Mrs. Martin wrote:Answer this question:

Do you think people want whatever it is they're doing on any given occasion, or do they want whatever it is that what they're doing is a means towards?

I believe that people want what they want now, and they don't really care what happens to them later. There are a lot of examples of things that people do without thinking of the consequences. There are drugs, (cough, Alice in wonderland) violence, saying something without thinking about it first, and just sinning in general. You could add more to the list, there are a lot. Hebrews 12:11 says "For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." I believe this is true. Although we are not discussing whether one or the other should be held higher, I think patience, and waiting on Gods timing, is the only way to do things. But as far as the question goes, I think most people do what their flesh wants them to do in the moment. Without giving a lot of thought to what might happen later. Now that is not all people. There are of course people who are patient, and work towards things. But I honestly think it depends on the person, and what their mindset is. No one but God knows the condition of a persons heart, although we can come to a conclusion about the person based on their actions, we cannot truly know. But in the end, based on their actions alone, I would say that the majority of society wants whatever they are doing on a give occasion. Based on the their actions only. A great example would be I guess the protesters against Trump. They are violent and are basically doing everything they say they are against. But do you think they are thinking of anyone but themselves? No. Do you think that they are considering the effect it will have on our country? No. I think they are a prime example. Even though they are out there "protesting" for what they think is a "cause" I don't believe they are thinking ahead to how this kind of violence and rash behavior is dividing us as a country. But I believe that just based on observing their actions, I would say half of our country has that mindset. And of course their are other examples, but that one I think would be the biggest. I hope all that makes sense.

Mrs. Martin wrote:Answer this question:

Do you think people want whatever it is they're doing on any given occasion, or do they want whatever it is that what they're doing is a means towards?

I think, a majority of the time, when people succeed in attaining something, they want whatever it is they're doing (the means if you will).

First, let's clear up the specific issue at hand. I believe the question is asking about a circumstance where a person is attempting to achieve a specific goal. This is based on the context of what Plato has been talking about. The question, then, is balancing two issues: the means to that goal, and the end result. He is asking, therefore, that when people are trying to attain whatever goal, whether they truly want the means to attain that goal, or simply the end result.

Having this understanding, I can now delve into why I believe that the means is what people want (most of the time) when they earnestly want to get to a certain goal. I believe this is best illustrated through two examples:
First are the Navy SEALs. Our family loves watching the special forces training shows that come on, to appreciate what they go through and see if we could do it as well Now, when you see how these guys (or girls, so I don't get in trouble ) train, you'll understand why very few people actually make it through the program. The physical, mental, and emotional stress that trainees go through is insane. Everyone comes into the SEAL program wanting to become a Navy SEAL, otherwise they wouldn't be there. However, the only people who are successful in this program are the ones that actually want to do what it takes to become a SEAL. The successful ones want to feel the burn, freeze in the surf, and be broken down so they can be the best they can be. They understand that if they don't go through the process and get beaten up, they'll never achieve the result they want (to succeed and be a SEAL). If they truly want to end, then they have to want the means to that end just as much, if not more.

Second, we can look at sports. You guys all know I'm a pretty competitive tennis player. I follow, watch, and read about all the successful guys, who have risen to the top of the sport. Now, everyone in our class who does sports will understand two things about them: 1) Sports are definitely not as easy as the best guys make it look, and 2) You have to put in a TON of work, and I mean a TON (did I say a TON? ), in order to get that good. In fact, this really goes for mastering anything. I just use sports because I personally relate to them. If someone, say, wanted to become a professional tennis player, or even get a scholarship to a D1 school, it wouldn't just happen. They'd have to spend tens of thousands of hours practicing and mastering their strokes, training their mind, conditioning their physical body, etc. They would have to be willing to suffer through some physical pain, some disappointing losses, even some injuries (or in my case, probably a lot of injuries ). This would all take years. Now, if they really wanted to end up at that level, they would have to want to do all that work. The person couldn't just hope that talent alone would take them to the top. They'd have to be willing, and excited, for the extra work that it would take to become great.

This is why, at the end of the day, a person who succeeds at something will want the means to that end just as much, if not more, than the end themselves. They would HAVE to want the means, because they understand that without the means, there is no end. I believe Paul says it best in 1 Corinthians 9:24 - "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain."

Isabelleagarcia wrote:To answer the question, I would say in today's society people want whatever it is they are doing on any given occasion.

I loved the point you made about instant gratification. It's so true in today's world. I did have one question about your theory though. What if someone wanted something that they couldn't get right away? Would they then want the means to get it, or simply the instant gratification at the end?

To make that make more sense, let's take your Heroin example. Let's say your mystery person didn't have any drugs at the moment, but they really wanted to have a rush. So, they set out to find Heroin. This turns out to be a long process of finding a dealer, getting money, avoiding law enforcement, etc. In this case, they wanted something they couldn't get right away. So, did they actually want to do the things they did so that they could get the drugs in the first place, or would they ultimately just want the drugs at the end without the means to get them?

Hope that is clear

"A great example would be I guess the protesters against Trump. Do you think that they are considering the effect it will have on our country? No. However, that is exactly what  The question states that they are doing it as a means towards something. It doesn't say whether the conclusion is good/bad. While what they want as a conclusion might be different than yours, they are protesting as a means towards something. This means that they want a change/conclusion. So I don't see how example is relevant to the original question.

sarahm wrote:"A great example would be I guess the protesters against Trump. Do you think that they are considering the effect it will have on our country? No. However, that is exactly what  The question states that they are doing it as a means towards something. It doesn't say whether the conclusion is good/bad. While what they want as a conclusion might be different than yours, they are protesting as a means towards something. This means that they want a change/conclusion. So I don't see how example is relevant to the original question.

Okay so I understand where you are coming from with your question. But if I was unclear, I used the example to illustrate that these people are responding to their anger and disappointment from the election and going out to protest and burn limousines etc. Based on how they feel in the moment. Without really giving thought to how it will divide our country. I mean, do you really think that people who are trying to accomplish a legitimate goal act like that? No. They are just responding in the moment. I am talking about that one aspect of it. I am not talking about that they have some goal in mind. And it gets more detailed, but I was just using the main part of the "reaction". If you see what I mean. Because honestly this protesting is violent, unconstitutional, and just down right wrong. These people claimed they would leave the country if Trump won. How many of them did? So if you look at the context and what leads up to it. I think it will make sense. This "protesting" is to put pressure on people, and an outlet for their anger and disappointments. They are not thinking about that affect their actions will have, whether they have a goal in mind or not, it will not be accomplished by being a violent pouty mob. If the means by which you do something, goes against what you "stand" for and your goal, then I think that this example stands. I hope that makes sense

Mrs. Martin wrote:Answer this question:

Do you think people want whatever it is they're doing on any given occasion, or do they want whatever it is that what they're doing is a means towards?

I believe that it depends on what they are doing and the type pf person they are. I personally, sometimes only do things to reach an end. Like if I am helping my sister in the barn most of the time its not because i'm caring and wanna help her out but because I don't wanna help her later. Or in the case of running, I only run for the benefit of my body not just because I like doing it. Riding was one of the few things I did for the sheer enjoyment of it, which it eventually turned into a chore which is part of the reason I quit. Now the list of things I do simply for fun is limited to eating Ice Cream and watching sappy unrealistic romance movies when i'm not doing school xD lol.

Isabelleagarcia wrote:Lets take Heroin addicts for example. When they decide to stick the needle in their arm and inject themselves with the drug, they are not thinking of how in the end they are going to suffer a serious mental and physical crash, who would? They are thinking of the immediate rush the drug gives them. They are injecting right into the vain. This rush is an instant slap to the face. They and many other people are searching for "Instant Gratification." Some lesser instances would be internet. We want internet to be high-speed and accessible, and it is. We literally have it at our fingertips. When we open up safari on our Iphone's we are expecting our search to happen immediately. Have you ever noticed what happens when we don't get what we want. If the internet is slow we quickly result to anger. (or at least I do ) This could even be the instance with food. Want things as quickly as possible, with minimal work. I will use myself as an example. I cant tell you how many times I have wished that Panera would deliver to my home. The reason being I don't want to have to drive out to get it. I want something without having to put any work into it. How many of you remember the 877-cashNOW commercials...The main line was "Its my money and I want it NOW!" This just shows how demanding we all are. Now lets look at the other side of this. There are people who don't necessarily seek "Instant Gratification." After all John Heywood did say "Rome wasn't built in a day" There are people out there that know things take time. You cant wake up one day and say "Today I am going to be a forensic anthropologist" and then poof you are one. That's not how it works. It takes years of schooling, and connections to get to there. Or maybe you wake up one day and say "I am going to get a job at Publix" A little fairy doesn't appear and grant you your wish. You have to work your way there. You have to fill out an application, then get interviewed, and wait for a response. The easiest things in life will deliver "Instant gratification", however the harder things will test your endurance and will pay off in the end. To answer the question, I would say in today's society people want whatever it is they are doing on any given occasion.

Interesting perspective Bella!! Would you agree that instant gratification is found only in very few things? And What to you think the motive is behind those who are after instant gratification? Laziness or Inability?

The first question we must ask ourselves is, "what does it mean to want something?" The first thing we need to accept is that we as people are always desiring things, and all of us can be completely selfish with our wants. As we look around ourselves we see all the wonderful things God has blessed us with, and most of the time how we take those things for granted and how we are always wanting something more, so that our happiness is fulfilled and complete. Either way we can ultimately say that a human hungers for satisfaction. It could be through minute ways like wanting to eat an entire box of pizza for the pleasure and satisfaction of your grumbling belly, or in bigger ways like, striving to work hard and be a better person in life for the sake of what that person believes comes after death. If we only want what's in the world, are we truly wanting anything? The way I see wanting is to have a complete after effect of satisfaction. But we know that a few hours later after we've eaten that pizza, our tummy begins to grumble and hunger for more. This is because we know that food holds the hunger away only for so long, it's a temporary satisfaction. If we as people are only focusing on wanting the minute things that life offers, then what is the purpose of wanting anything? Think bigger! Why want if you can't be completely satisfied? To what do we live life for if we only choose the worldly things that offer an ongoing hunger of incomplete satisfaction over the complete satisfaction? Complete satisfaction is the whole reason of why we hunger, and why we thirst in the first place.( i.e. in order for there to be a cure there has to be a sickness, or some sort of problem.) So how can our desires be completely satisfied? Psalm 37:4 says, "Delight yourselves in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart." This verse means that every one of our emotions that governs over our wants, God fulfills. How extremely blessed we are by God. Though we end up wanting the earthly things like, relationships, wealth, power, pride, knowledge etc.. we know deep down inside that we don't need any of it, and we know that it's just what our flesh craves. But Most importantly we see evident, that not one of the earthly things can even compare to the satisfaction that Christ gives us through praising and glorifying Him. In conclusion of this completely long essay, I would say that most people look for instant gratification on earth including believers as fault of our sinful nature, and that only God knows truly the hearts of man and where their loyalties and desires lie.
"Ohhhhhhhhhhh, you can have all this world, just give me Jesus." -Song by Jeremy Camp.

"They're have to be willing and excited for the extra work that it would take to become great."

Why is it that someone would even train that hard with tennis? Is it only satisfaction through training to say, "I did crazy tennis training!" Or do you think people do it for the sake of having the title of a pro tennis player? (Pride/glory) What do you think? For simply pleasure of sport or pleasure of pride?

oprah_wind_fury wrote:Why is it that someone would even train that hard with tennis? Is it only satisfaction through training to say, "I did crazy tennis training!" Or do you think people do it for the sake of having the title of a pro tennis player? (Pride/glory) What do you think?  For simply pleasure of sport or pleasure of pride?

I think it can be both. In fact, there are a ton of reasons you might want to get that good. If it's college, you may want to be able to pay for school or do an activity outside of just the curriculum. If it's professional, you definitely might do it for the fame and glory (not saying that's a good thing, per se, but people definitely do). You could also do it to see the world or get in front of a crowd. You could even do it to have a platform to share your faith on.

Ultimately, though, you still have to love the sport and love the process. Don't quote me on this, but I believe out of all the athletes who try and make it to college/professional level, less than 1% actually do. All the people had the dream and desire to make it, but those that do truly had a passion for the sport and the work that goes into it.

TheBatman wrote:

Isabelleagarcia wrote:To answer the question, I would say in today's society people want whatever it is they are doing on any given occasion.

I loved the point you made about instant gratification. It's so true in today's world. I did have one question about your theory though. What if someone wanted something that they couldn't get right away? Would they then want the means to get it, or simply the instant gratification at the end?

To make that make more sense, let's take your Heroin example. Let's say your mystery person didn't have any drugs at the moment, but they really wanted to have a rush. So, they set out to find Heroin. This turns out to be a long process of finding a dealer, getting money, avoiding law enforcement, etc. In this case, they wanted something they couldn't get right away. So, did they actually want to do the things they did so that they could get the drugs in the first place, or would they ultimately just want the drugs at the end without the means to get them?

Hope that is clear

To answer both yourself and Olivia I think it is important to notice what the question is truly asking. The question is asking if people WANT. Lets be honest here...Not a lot of people WANT to have to do any hard work. They would find it much easier to just be "lazy" as Olivia said. A heroin addict doesn't WANT to have to go on this journey to find heroin. They are just thinking about how much they WANT the actual heroin. These addicts take this drug for either a rush, or an instant pain reliever. You think someone in pain is going to WANT to take this long journey...I don't. Maybe even think about this way, I was talking with the women who mentors me and I shared with her the question. After a little bit of conversation she came to this conclusion, My husband may not WANT to go to work, but he knows that he needs to in order to earn money and provide for their family. There is a difference between KNOW and WANT. Sorry for such a late reply, its been super busy this week.