Gorgias Discussion Week #11

Please answer/discuss the following quote found on page 109 of Gorgias.

Socrates: And what about doing wrong? Is the wish not to do wrong all it takes for him not to do wrong, or for this to happen does he also need to be equipped with a certain ability and branch of expertise, which he has to study and practice if he is to avoid doing wrong?

Mrs. Martin wrote:Please answer/discuss the following quote found on page 109 of Gorgias.

Socrates:  And what about doing wrong?  Is the wish not to do wrong all it takes for him not to do wrong, or for this to happen does he also need to be equipped with a certain ability and branch of expertise, which he has to study and practice if he is to avoid doing wrong?

I believe that regardless of skill set or branch of expertise, to do wrong or to not boils down to a personal choice. I could be highly educated in the field of morals and know its wrong to steal from a person but do it anyway. Being a good person does not require anything but a good heart and the desire to do good.

Mrs. Martin wrote:Please answer/discuss the following quote found on page 109 of Gorgias.

Socrates:  And what about doing wrong?  Is the wish not to do wrong all it takes for him not to do wrong, or for this to happen does he also need to be equipped with a certain ability and branch of expertise, which he has to study and practice if he is to avoid doing wrong?

To wish something to happen obviously isn't the same thing as it actually happening. I think that the wish not to do wrong is NOT all it takes for someone not to do wrong. So here I go with the cookie jar example again:
Mom: “Don’t eat the cookies”
Kid: “OK Mom I won’t.”
Kid: *eats the cookie*
The wrong here isn’t really that the kid enjoyed a cookie, the wrong is that the child directly disobeyed their parent. So, you know that you're supposed to obey your parents. What is the reason you ate the cookie. Are you thinking, “my mom told me not to eat it so I’m only going to eat the cookie because she doesn't want me to.” Or, are you thinking “That cookie looks delicious, I want to eat it.” Probably the second one. You don’t wish/want to disobey your mother (that is not the reason you ate the cookie), but obviously the wish to not disobey is not enough to keep you from doing the wrong. You have wished to not do wrong yet you have still done the wrong. Therefore, the wish not to do wrong is not all it takes for someone not to do wrong.

[quote="egrabrick"]
Sorry, I forgot to answer the second part of the question. I would disagree with the second part of the quote. I don't think that you have to study to not do wrong, because we all have that "certain ability" to choose right or wrong.

Mrs. Martin wrote:Please answer/discuss the following quote found on page 109 of Gorgias.

Socrates:  And what about doing wrong?  Is the wish not to do wrong all it takes for him not to do wrong, or for this to happen does he also need to be equipped with a certain ability and branch of expertise, which he has to study and practice if he is to avoid doing wrong?

I believe that the wish to to do wrong is simply not enough. I believe that a person needs to be an expert in the truth in order to avoid doing wrong, and make spiritual progress in the process. We need to accept God and know what is true in order to avoid doing evil. Because we knew what was wrong, yet we did not know why, but now we know what is wrong, and we now know why. Because we have the standards God has given us to judge what is wrong and what is right. That is the expertise you need to have. For example, lets take an unsaved person, they may no be a bad person per se. They may not smoke, or do drugs etc.. They don't seem to have any glaring problems. But what is their sin? They have not given their life to who deserves it. They are living for themselves. And that is a sin in its self. So you see, you cant avoid doing evil or sinning without having an expertise in the truth. To know what is true and to do your best to live by it. To follow God and give glory to him. That is my opinion of this quote. I hope it makes sense. Let me know if it does not and I am totally willing to clarify!

LivvyT wrote:

Mrs. Martin wrote:Please answer/discuss the following quote found on page 109 of Gorgias.

Socrates:  And what about doing wrong?  Is the wish not to do wrong all it takes for him not to do wrong, or for this to happen does he also need to be equipped with a certain ability and branch of expertise, which he has to study and practice if he is to avoid doing wrong?

I believe that regardless of skill set or branch of expertise, to do wrong or to not boils down to a personal choice. I could be highly educated in the field of morals and know its wrong to steal from a person but do it anyway. Being a good person does not require anything but a good heart and the desire to do good.    

Interesting points Olivia! I after reading your post I have a question for you, do unsaved people have the capability to be good? Or do they need to be saved in order to have the capability of avoiding sin/doing wrong?

Mrs. Martin wrote:Please answer/discuss the following quote found on page 109 of Gorgias.

Socrates:  And what about doing wrong?  Is the wish not to do wrong all it takes for him not to do wrong, or for this to happen does he also need to be equipped with a certain ability and branch of expertise, which he has to study and practice if he is to avoid doing wrong?

Let's define some words!
Wish: feel or express a strong desire or hope for something that is not easily attainable; want something that cannot or probably will not happen.
Wrong: unjust, dishonest, or immoral.

So i feel or express a strong desire not to do something dishonest or immoral, but its either not attainable or simple just won't happen. So in every part of life you can't just wish for something to happen without putting any effort into it. If i wish not to do something dishonest or immoral than I would need self control. You control what you do with your life, no one else does. If someone tells you something to do its your choice to do it or not. Every situation is different, if what they told you to do has a good outcome then you probably would do it. With the same situation, if the outcome is bad for you then you probably won't do what they said. Back to my point, you need to put effort into something you desire to do. When you wish you know its just a dream or a fantasy. If you wish not to do something that is wrong then put effort in not to do it. Lets say your doing math and you have the answer book right next to you and you really just want to be done for the day with school. Instead of wishing not to simply open up the book and not look at the answers, put the book in a different room or give it to a family member till your done. Make an actual effort not to do wrong. Stop letting your dreams and wishes be unreachable, make an effort and fulfill those dreams a wishes.

Mrs. Martin wrote:Please answer/discuss the following quote found on page 109 of Gorgias.

Socrates:  And what about doing wrong?  Is the wish not to do wrong all it takes for him not to do wrong, or for this to happen does he also need to be equipped with a certain ability and branch of expertise, which he has to study and practice if he is to avoid doing wrong?

I'd disagree with both parts of this statement.

First is obvious. Simply wishing not to do wrong doesn't really stop you from doing it. I can wish all I want not to sin, but if I still do it means nothing. Basically, I agree with everyone else here who's given examples/analysis on this

Second is less so. The question I would pose is: Can we as humans ever practice enough to totally avoid doing wrong? I think the answer is no. Ultimately, we'll never be perfect, whether saved or unsaved. When you're unsaved, your sin nature rules your life and you can't help doing wrong. Even when you're saved, though, we still sin. In 1 John, the author (John ) writes to Christians. In chapter 1 verses 7-10 he says:

"7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Ultimately, even if you practice and have knowledge about doing wrong, you still sin. The difference between saved and unsaved is that when you're saved, the Holy Spirit enables you to choose not to sin. So that's ultimately the question. Without the aid of the Holy Spirit, even when we're saved, we can never practice enough to avoid doing wrong. It is only by surrender to the Spirit that we can really avoid doing wrong.

JACK ATTACK wrote:

Because we knew what was wrong, yet we did not know why, but now we know what is wrong, and we now know why.  

I'm inclined to agree with your conclusion Jack! I was wondering though, would you mind explaining why you believe unsaved people don't understand why an certain things are wrong?

TheBatman wrote:I'm inclined to agree with your conclusion Jack! I was wondering though, would you mind explaining why you believe unsaved people don't understand why an certain things are wrong?

Well Eli... in answer to your question, I would have to say simply, they don't have standards. As Christians God has set out standards for us to follow and judge our actions by. For example, as Christians we obviously know that blasphemy is wrong. While an unsaved person, who does not have the standards and understanding of the truth like we do, thinks there is nothing wrong with it. That they can take the Lords name in vain and their is no wrong done, at least in their minds. That is just one example. There are others of course, but I chose one that has a easy to see contrast. And there are other examples of this as well. But even if they do think something is wrong, murder for example, they are judging that by the same standards that make blasphemy okay. They are not judging actions of themselves or others by God's flawless and perfect standards. Now don't get me wrong, obviously murder is wrong, but we know truly why from a spiritual perspective, while other people may think it is wrong from a legal perspective. To sum up, if they don't have God's standards, they can not strive to avoid evil. I hope that answers your question!

JACK ATTACK wrote:

TheBatman wrote:I'm inclined to agree with your conclusion Jack! I was wondering though, would you mind explaining why you believe unsaved people don't understand why an certain things are wrong?

Well Eli... in answer to your question, I would have to say simply, they don't have standards. As Christians God has set out standards for us to follow and judge our actions by. For example, as Christians we obviously know that blasphemy is wrong. While an unsaved person, who does not have the standards and understanding of the truth like we do, thinks there is nothing wrong with it. That they can take the Lords name in vain and their is no wrong done, at least in their minds. That is just one example. There are others of course, but I chose one that has a easy to see contrast. And there are other examples of this as well. But even if they do think something is wrong, murder for example, they are judging that by the same standards that make blasphemy okay. They are not judging actions of themselves or others by God's flawless and perfect standards. Now don't get me wrong, obviously murder is wrong, but we know truly why from a spiritual perspective, while other people may think it is wrong from a legal perspective. To sum up, if they don't have God's standards, they can not strive to avoid evil. I hope that answers your question!

I can see that. From the blasphemy example though, wouldn't that be an example of not knowing what was wrong, not why? Because I think we both agreed that people who aren't saved know what is wrong.

I guess where I'm coming from is this. If you went up and asked an unsaved person, who believes themselves to be good, why it is wrong to kill or steal or slander, they'd be able to tell you. In the same way, if you went up to an unsaved person and asked them why it's right to give to charity or honor your parents, they'd be able to tell you.

In my opinion, there is a difference between understanding why something is wrong and knowing where that understanding came from, if that makes sense. The unsaved don't know how they got their understanding of right and wrong, but they do know they have it. Why else would people say they were a "good person" if they didn't understand it? Hope that clears up where I'm coming from

p.s. wouldn't understanding carry with it the idea of actually understanding the background on something (the why), not just knowledge (the what)? Food for thought

Mrs. Martin wrote:Please answer/discuss the following quote found on page 109 of Gorgias.

Socrates:  And what about doing wrong?  Is the wish not to do wrong all it takes for him not to do wrong, or for this to happen does he also need to be equipped with a certain ability and branch of expertise, which he has to study and practice if he is to avoid doing wrong?

I believe that there is a constant battle between right and wrong, therefore will power itself is not going to be enough. If we could just try not to do wrong and be fine God would mean  a lot less to us.

egrabrick wrote:

TheBatman wrote:

JACK ATTACK wrote:

TheBatman wrote:I'm inclined to agree with your conclusion Jack! I was wondering though, would you mind explaining why you believe unsaved people don't understand why an certain things are wrong?

Well Eli... in answer to your question, I would have to say simply, they don't have standards. As Christians God has set out standards for us to follow and judge our actions by. For example, as Christians we obviously know that blasphemy is wrong. While an unsaved person, who does not have the standards and understanding of the truth like we do, thinks there is nothing wrong with it. That they can take the Lords name in vain and their is no wrong done, at least in their minds. That is just one example. There are others of course, but I chose one that has a easy to see contrast. And there are other examples of this as well. But even if they do think something is wrong, murder for example, they are judging that by the same standards that make blasphemy okay. They are not judging actions of themselves or others by God's flawless and perfect standards. Now don't get me wrong, obviously murder is wrong, but we know truly why from a spiritual perspective, while other people may think it is wrong from a legal perspective. To sum up, if they don't have God's standards, they can not strive to avoid evil. I hope that answers your question!

I can see that. From the blasphemy example though, wouldn't that be an example of not knowing what was wrong, not why? Because I think we both agreed that people who aren't saved know what is wrong.

I guess where I'm coming from is this. If you went up and asked an unsaved person, who believes themselves to be good, why it is wrong to kill or steal or slander, they'd be able to tell you. In the same way, if you went up to an unsaved person and asked them why it's right to give to charity or honor your parents, they'd be able to tell you.

In my opinion, there is a difference between understanding why something is wrong and knowing where that understanding came from, if that makes sense. The unsaved don't know how they got their understanding of right and wrong, but they do know they have it. Why else would people say they were a "good person" if they didn't understand it? Hope that clears up where I'm coming from

p.s. wouldn't understanding carry with it the idea of actually understanding the background on something (the why), not just knowledge (the what)? Food for thought

This is a very interesting conversation to watch. One thing that stood out to me about Jack's last post is how it is related to the last HSWTL? question for this chapter. (Sorry for bringing in that book, but it seemed relevant...) "What does 'If there are no absolutes by which to judge society, society is absolute,' mean?"

I have a question for each of you...

Jack:
If, according to society, it was considered right to murder, would a non-Christian think murder was okay, or would they think it was wrong? Basically, are people born with a sense of right and wrong, or do they have to follow some standard, such as the standards of society, or the standards of their religion?

Eli:
Would a non-Christian really be able to tell you why something was wrong? Or would they only be able to say that it was against the law?

Hey Elijah, glad you're watching! I agree about HSWTL, that really matches up nicely

As far as your question, I'd just go back to what I responded to Jack. If you went up to an unsaved person and asked them if it was wrong to steal/kill/lie/slander, and why, they'd be able to tell you. Likewise, if you asked an unsaved person why it was right to give to charity or honor your parents, they'd also be able to answer you. While this might have something to do with a legal aspect, it is not limited to that. People have an understanding of why something is wrong outside of a legal context, at least in my opinion. To give an example, I believe it was Beethoven who looked up to Napoleon his whole life. But when Napoleon started conquesting (is that a word? ) and becoming a dictator, he turned against him and was very bitter. Why? Because he understood that what Napoleon was doing was wrong, even though he was the leader of an entire country.

Mrs. Martin wrote:Please answer/discuss the following quote found on page 109 of Gorgias.

Socrates:  And what about doing wrong?  Is the wish not to do wrong all it takes for him not to do wrong, or for this to happen does he also need to be equipped with a certain ability and branch of expertise, which he has to study and practice if he is to avoid doing wrong?

Aristotle once said "We are what we repeatedly do." If we repeatedly do wrong will we not then become wrong? I think that to not do wrong you must do more than wish. I can wish to get into shape (lol) but that does not mean that "poof" I am going to just be in shape. I also don't think it takes a certain ability or branch of expertise...I believe it is a mind set. Aristotle goes on to say "Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." So replace with Excellence with doing good. and take the quote as a whole. If we make a habit out of doing good then, are we not good?

jcfjosh wrote:

Mrs. Martin wrote:Please answer/discuss the following quote found on page 109 of Gorgias.

Socrates:  And what about doing wrong?  Is the wish not to do wrong all it takes for him not to do wrong, or for this to happen does he also need to be equipped with a certain ability and branch of expertise, which he has to study and practice if he is to avoid doing wrong?

I believe that there is a constant battle between right and wrong, therefore will power itself is not going to be enough. If we could just try not to do wrong and be fine God would mean  a lot less to us.

Okay so I get what your saying to an extent. I like how you pointed out that will power by itself wont be enough. We need to rely on God for everything.

jcfjosh wrote:

Mrs. Martin wrote:Please answer/discuss the following quote found on page 109 of Gorgias.

Socrates:  And what about doing wrong?  Is the wish not to do wrong all it takes for him not to do wrong, or for this to happen does he also need to be equipped with a certain ability and branch of expertise, which he has to study and practice if he is to avoid doing wrong?

I believe that there is a constant battle between right and wrong, therefore will power itself is not going to be enough. If we could just try not to do wrong and be fine God would mean  a lot less to us.

Agreed

JACK ATTACK wrote:

LivvyT wrote:

Mrs. Martin wrote:Please answer/discuss the following quote found on page 109 of Gorgias.

Socrates:  And what about doing wrong?  Is the wish not to do wrong all it takes for him not to do wrong, or for this to happen does he also need to be equipped with a certain ability and branch of expertise, which he has to study and practice if he is to avoid doing wrong?

I believe that regardless of skill set or branch of expertise, to do wrong or to not boils down to a personal choice. I could be highly educated in the field of morals and know its wrong to steal from a person but do it anyway. Being a good person does not require anything but a good heart and the desire to do good.    

Interesting points Olivia! I after reading your post I have a question for you, do unsaved people have the capability to be good? Or do they need to be saved in order to have the capability of avoiding sin/doing wrong?

Hi Jack! Yes i think unsaved people have the capacity to be good, but their motives are in the wrong place. Instead of trying to live like Christ and model good behavior, an unsaved "good person" does "good things" for personal gain or for various other reasons. Does that make sense?

when you want to do something it's a personal choice. if you want to go to a certain college that is your choice. everything we do in life is a choice. so it would only seem fair to say the same thing for "doing wrong". it's a personal choice. we don't just wake up and brush our teeth, make our beds and "do wrong". its not part of a routine or something. if you want to intentionally hurt someone or do wrong you make the conscious decision. and making a designs means you had two or more options and you have to choose which one you are going to go through with, making a choice. you don't need a certain education, or certain tools to do wrong. you just do it!

Mrs. Martin wrote:Please answer/discuss the following quote found on page 109 of Gorgias.

Socrates:  And what about doing wrong?  Is the wish not to do wrong all it takes for him not to do wrong, or for this to happen does he also need to be equipped with a certain ability and branch of expertise, which he has to study and practice if he is to avoid doing wrong?

I disagree with Socrates. I believe many people want to do wrong, because it feels good. Many people let their craving flesh decide a folly fate. All are tried, tempted, and all fall short to the glory of God. Even some of the most adamant and strongest believers in God make some of the same mistakes as non believers do. The only way one can not want to do wrong is by submitting your heart, mind, and soul to God, and by only having God himself to fulfill you completely and unconditionally with all that He is. Are we capable of submitting ourselves to Christ? Yes. Do we always want to submit ourselves? No. If we don't let God fulfill us, are we doing wrong? Yes. One should always aspire to do what is right, but knowing ourselves well enough, we know that we are constantly making errors over and over again. Why? It is because of who we are. We are all selfish, flesh craving, ignorant people, of which I believe all stems back to Pride. We as believers are constantly in the battle of flesh v.s. spirit. It is only through God that the spirit can win. The beautiful thing about God that I have personally witnessed is that He's always there, He never forsakes, and He's consistently and perpetually patient towards his foolish and rebellious children. He waits with arms wide open to embrace his children despite everything they've done with Love, Peace, Forgiveness, Mercy, and Hope. Yet we know all of this and we still do wrong, because we WILL to do wrong. The enemy plays games and tricks, but the choice is all yours. How can we make the right choice? We can not stand alone, help is given freely to those who ask for it. There was a point Socrates made by saying, " It takes knowing and practicing to not do wrong" this I also disagree with partially. It is great to know what is wrong and it is good to practice what you would do to overcome it, but when the test comes and stares you dead in the face, are you ultimately WILLING to do what is right. In order to overcome the wrong you have to WILL not to. I know it sounds basic, but to choose the will to not do wrong is one of the hardest concepts the spirit must overcome. To end this long journey of an essay, we know one thing for certain, that through all of the wrong and foolish mistakes that we choose, God is still good.

Isabelleagarcia wrote:

Mrs. Martin wrote:Please answer/discuss the following quote found on page 109 of Gorgias.

Socrates:  And what about doing wrong?  Is the wish not to do wrong all it takes for him not to do wrong, or for this to happen does he also need to be equipped with a certain ability and branch of expertise, which he has to study and practice if he is to avoid doing wrong?

Aristotle once said "We are what we repeatedly do." If we repeatedly do wrong will we not then become wrong? I think that to not do wrong you must do more than wish. I can wish to get into shape (lol) but that does not mean that "poof" I am going to just be in shape. I also don't think it takes a certain ability or branch of expertise...I believe it is a mind set. Aristotle goes on to say "Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." So replace with Excellence with doing good. and take the quote as a whole. If we make a habit out of doing good then, are we not good?

So first off, you have an interesting point here, however I have to disagree with your quotes. My question for you Bellea is, "do our actions define us as a person?"