Gorgias Discussion Week #4

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Gorgias Discussion Week #4

Post by Mrs. Martin on Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:38 am

Question #1

Throughout Plato's dialogues, morality is repeatedly said to be the most important matter in the world to have correct views about.  Do you agree or disagree with Plato and why?
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Re: Gorgias Discussion Week #4

Post by TheBatman on Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:34 am

I would disagree with Plato here. I would say your worldview, and more specifically your views on God (a.k.a. salvation) included in your worldview are the most important. The reasoning here is that nothing is more important than your eternal destiny. You can be a moral, unsaved person, and you will be separated from God for eternity. On the flip side, you can be an immoral, saved person, and even though your actions will be judged, you will still spend eternity in Heaven with God. Now, I'm not saying morality isn't important. Your moral code is included in your worldview. However, your worldview is more than just a moral code, it is how you view life in all aspects, including salvation, who your authorities are, your science, philosophy, and everything else in between. This is why worldview, and most importantly salvation, is the biggest issue to consider in our lives.
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Post by Mrs. Martin on Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:12 am

Interesting point here TheBatman! I do agree that a person's salvation is the most important thing to happen to them without a doubt!!! Do you think Plato was considering a persons faith when he was thinking about morality? How can a person be saved and immoral at the same time? Isn't Plato saying that morality (moral code) is your worldview?
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Re: Gorgias Discussion Week #4

Post by TheBatman on Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:09 pm

Mrs. Martin wrote:Do you think Plato was considering a persons faith when he was thinking about morality?

I would hope so, but I don't necessarily think he was. A lot of Greek philosophers were pagan. Whether he was pagan I don't know, but I would guess that he wasn't considering faith.

Mrs. Martin wrote:How can a person be saved and immoral at the same time?
 

It's possible for someone to be living in sin and still be saved. Just because we get saved doesn't mean we become perfect. In Romans 7 (I think), Paul even says himself that he finds himself doing the things that he knows he shouldn't, and not doing the things he knows he should be doing. You can even look at examples of people who get saved as children, fall away from the faith, and come back later in life.

Mrs. Martin wrote:Isn't Plato saying that morality (moral code) is your worldview?


I don't think so. As I said in my original post, worldview is more than just morality, it's all of your views on life. I think Plato would know this, and he is claiming that the moral issue is the most important to get right.
Also, the prompt itself asks us what we personally think about the question. Personally, I don't believe worldview and morality are synonymous Very Happy
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Re: Gorgias Discussion Week #4

Post by JACK ATTACK on Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:36 pm

I would also tend to disagree. It does not matter how "moral" you are, if you have not accepted Jesus Christ into your heart. "Though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more." - Philippians 3:4 I believe what Paul was trying to say here is that if you put your confidence in your fleshly ability to be holy, you will fail. You will not go to heaven. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness's are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." - ISAIAH 64:6 It is true, with out Jesus, there is no point. As hard as we work to be a good person, if you don't accept Christ into your heart, if God is not in the center of everything you do, then is is meaningless. All your "good works" are but filthy rags. If you don't cast off the chains of sin that bind you, you can never be free. So in conclusion I think that your salvation and relationship with God are the most important things to be sure and right on. Because Heaven and hell are eternal, this life and the things we have here are not. What we do in life, echos in eternity. If we don't get our priorities straight here, we will live out what we have sowed.
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Re: Gorgias Discussion Week #4

Post by TheBatman on Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:48 pm

\"o== wrote:======>"]As hard as we work to be a good person, if you don't accept Christ into your heart, if God is not in the center of everything you do, then is is meaningless. All your "good works" are but filthy rags.

Interesting thoughts Jack! I agree with you, as you've probably seen in my post Smile

I did have one scenario for you to consider though. The question is if morality is the most important to have correct views about. If you get the correct view, as we can both agree is the Biblical view, is morality then the most important thing? Essentially, are you saying that morality, if you follow the Biblical view, is the most important thing? But that since a lot of people don't get it right, then it isn't as important as salvation? I guess I'm asking whether your answer is conditional or not, whether morality is NEVER most important or if it IS most important if you get it correct. Hope that makes sense Razz
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Livs Thoughts

Post by LivvyT on Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:22 pm

I agree with Plato. Our moral standards guide us in decision making and are what we base our actions off of. As christians, we are given a set of clear moral standards by Christ. When walking with him earnestly, the product is striving to be as Christ like as we possibly can to please him. You can not please Christ by being Immoral. As a Christian, I know it is morally wrong to kill another human being, so with this knowledge , if I am put in a position to kill or not kill, I will obviously not kill in an attempt to be moral. If I did not have that moral standard, it would not matter. Which is why the Moral standard is so important. The "success" of your life is solely based on the choices you make. Choices are made based off your moral standard. As Christians we get our Moral Standard from Christ. Unbelievers are an entirely different story though, bc they have a warped moral standard.
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My Answer

Post by oprah_wind_fury on Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:22 pm

Well, what is Morality? Morality is the distinction between right and wrong. Now knowing this we can ask ourselves well how do we know what IS morally right v.s. the morally wrong? If we can't establish these two important opposites to be different from one another, then there would be no boundaries, no rules, no laws, and only chaos. So we know that, morals are pretty important, and are definitely worth taking the time to understand. Now, as people, we all have morals, and like most people we want to do what is morally right. I like to look at morals from this kind of a perspective: Absolute Truth v.s. Absolute Non-truth. They are both complete polar opposites. The non-truth does its name justice by manipulating the truth and turning it into a lie,( a lie in disguise as the truth.) However, the Truth stays the same. It never changes, never fails, and always prevails. It is now up to the individual and their freedom of choice to pick carefully between the two. They know that deceit is real, they also know that truth is real, because of what they know morals to be, but where does that person's moral decision fall to? The side they choose will affect their lives completely. Many people give into the non-truth side, because they feel it's easier to believe and more fun to live by, and that is exactly what the non-truth wants you to believe. Well, we know that there can be no morals without absolutes, and having absolutes makes this so much easier! Now it comes down to belief's. A person who believes in morals knows that we as humans can't know whats right from wrong on our own, well, because we aren't perfect. SO, where can this individual look to find a perfect moral? We, as believers know that God is truth, and without God there would be no truth, let alone anything. So, in order for this individual to live according to truth and all that is good, they must come to the conclusion first, that they have morals, and once they come to that conclusion, it is only then that they can live a life worth living. A life to glorify God. So, I believe that yes, morality is the most important matter in life, because without it there would be no way for anyone to come to the conclusion that God is the definer of moral law, and that is the MOST important understanding we must comprehend in our own lives in order to truly believe in Him.
Yours truly,
Oprah_Wind_Fury (Maddie) lol!

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Questions for Jack Attack & The Batman

Post by oprah_wind_fury on Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:18 pm

So, my question to both of you is, "Wouldn't one have to come to the conclusion first, that morals are the way to understanding what is right v.s. what is wrong in order to know that salvation is important?"

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Re: Gorgias Discussion Week #4

Post by JACK ATTACK on Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:31 am

This is in answer to answer to TheBatman and oprah_wind_fury's question.

I believe the two of you are essentially asking the same question. Since morality and the ability to distinguish between right v. wrong can lead to salvation, doesn't that make it the most important? I would say no it does not. Essentially for this reason, we all have the ability to understand right from wrong, but what is right for some people is wrong for others and vice versa. Maddie you are right in saying that God gives us the true moral law, he gives us a perfect example in Christ Jesus. But whether we follow that law is a different matter. I guess what I am saying is that, the whole reason why we would want to follow God and follow the moral code he set down for us, is that we live eternity with him in the light! Yes conviction leads to salvation, but not by our ability to understand. God brings that conviction. So with that being said, lets take God out of the picture of morality. Lets leave the word morality by itself, as Christians, what do we have left? Well what we have left is that morality is anything that a majority of society finds to be acceptable. So in the end I still think that our relationship with God and our salvation are the most important things to have correct views. Because without of relationship with God, then we are absolutely nothing. If any of that made sense. (sorry my response was so long  Razz ) I
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Sarah's answer

Post by sarahm on Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:39 am

Mrs. Martin wrote:Question #1

Throughout Plato's dialogues, morality is repeatedly said to be the most important matter in the world to have correct views about.  Do you agree or disagree with Plato and why?

Morality - principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior
At first I would say no I do not agree that morality is the most important matter in the world to have correct views about b/c I think that the most important thing is your salvation. On the other hand, i think that if you have the CORRECT morals as the question states, that would eventually lead to the conclusion of salvation b/c salvation is right. If the question had simply said that morality is the most important thing I would have immediately said no, but since it asks whether it is the most important thing to have correct views on I would say that yes I do agree with Plato. (As long as "correct views about morals" means the Biblical view and the morals that God has set for us)

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Re: Gorgias Discussion Week #4

Post by egrabrick on Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:50 am

Mrs. Martin wrote:Question #1

Throughout Plato's dialogues, morality is repeatedly said to be the most important matter in the world to have correct views about.  Do you agree or disagree with Plato and why?

I would say I disagree with Plato. It is more important be correct about why we were created, and what our purpose in life is. With morality alone, we would know and do the right thing, but we wouldn't know why it's right. I think it's more important to know that we were made to glorify God, and not to simply do the right thing. When we become aware of the reason we are here, we then know that we should do the right thing because it glorifies God. Also, if we have an incorrect view of how we were created, and think we are the product of chance, there is nowhere for morality to come from. Most people believe it is wrong to murder, but if we get more advanced by "survival of the fittest," why would murder be wrong? Thus, I think it is more important to have correct views about why we were created, although morality is also important.
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Question for oprah_wind_fury

Post by egrabrick on Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:01 am

oprah_wind_fury wrote:So, I believe that yes, morality is the most important matter in life, because without it there would be no way for anyone to come to the conclusion that God is the definer of moral law, and that is the MOST important understanding we must comprehend in our own lives in order to truly believe in Him.

So, are you basically saying that an immoral person has to change and become a moral person before they can know God? Or can an immoral person be introduced to Him?
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Answering oprah_wind_fury & others

Post by TheBatman on Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:28 am

oprah_wind_fury wrote:So, my question to both of you is, "Wouldn't one have to come to the conclusion first, that morals are the way to understanding what is right v.s. what is wrong in order to know that salvation is important?"

First off, your username is hilarious, I got a good laugh yesterday Very Happy

Now to answer your question, I would totally agree with you that understanding what is right and wrong is a way to lead to salvation. I don't think anyone can dispute that. However, I still believe that salvation and your ultimate worldview is the most important thing to get correct. Here's why:

1) Mental Assent
Mental Assent is essentially agreeing with something but not actually believing it and taking it as your own. I think it's best illustrated with an example. My youth pastor was telling us a story last Sunday of his cousin. She had grown up in church her whole life and was a pastor's daughter. She had even taught various Christian classes. However, she did not actually make the decision to accept Christ until she was 38 years old! Now, she obviously had the correct view of morality. She knew what God and the Bible said was absolutely right and wrong. However, if she had never accepted Christ, would this knowledge have done her any good? Not at all. Ultimately, even though she had the correct moral view, it would have done her zero good had she not accepted Christ. Mental Assent without actually getting saved is an illustration of why salvation is still the most important thing to get right.

2) Different Belief Systems
Various different belief systems understand morality in much the same way Christians do. In a lot of belief systems (everything from deism to Catholicism) people believe in moral absolutes given by God. They understand how they know there is right and wrong. I bet even some agnostics or atheists believe in some sort of moral code. Again, though, just because they know what moral code is true and right doesn't actually help them. The most important decision they'll ever make is their worldview, and by far most importantly in that, their salvation.

3) The Law
The Bible actually talks a lot about what the Old Testament Law was used for in relation to morality. Remember, God layed down a ton of do's and don't's for the Israelite people to follow. Why? Well, the New Testament (I think Romans again) tells us that the purpose of the Law was to show that we can't keep it. The Law shows us that we're on the wrong track and need help to be brought back. However, can the Law save anyone? No it can't. The Law is condemnatory. That means it only shows us what we're doing wrong, not how to make it right. And I'm sure we can all agree that getting right is the most important thing to do in our lives.

4) Other Paths
The Bible also gives a few other ways that people can begin to see their need for salvation. Not only just morality, but also through Creation and the Great Commission that we carry out, people understand their need for salvation. This further shows that getting morality right is second in line to getting our hearts right with God.

I hope all this makes sense and answers the questions. I tried to be as clear as possible here, but we all know how that goes sometimes Very Happy
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Questions for Jack Attack & The Batman

Post by oprah_wind_fury on Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:06 pm

Well, what are the CORRECT views of morality? Couldn't you look at morality from the point of, "non-truth v.s. truth?" If so then morality would be the most important matter to have CORRECT views about, because then truth would be picked as the correct view, and then you would have the TRUE moral understanding that God is the correct view. Ya feel me? Laughing

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Re: Gorgias Discussion Week #4

Post by TheBatman on Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:22 pm

oprah_wind_fury wrote:Well, what are the CORRECT views of morality? Couldn't you look at morality from the point of,  "non-truth v.s. truth?" If so then morality would be the most important matter to have CORRECT views about, because then truth would be picked as the correct view, and then  you would have the TRUE moral understanding that God is the correct view. Ya feel me? Laughing

I think I get what you're saying Smile

From what I understand, you're saying that there is one "true" moral code, and that if we correctly understand that moral system it will bring us to the Truth, being God. Correct me if I didn't get that right, please Smile

Anyway, I would definitely agree that there is one true moral system, the one given by God to us. However, I don't think that simply being moral can lead us to total truth. Basically, just because we understand the true definition of morality doesn't mean we understand true salvation or true worldview or truths about God. Morality is inherently limited in the extent of truth it can provide, because it only deals with morality, nothing else. The Law layed down in the Bible was simply given as a condemnatory measure to show we can't live up to God's standard of morality. However, the Law (moral code) can't save us. That's why, at the end of the day, we still must accept Christ as Savior.

Aside from all that, I still believe that even if morality gave us total truth in all areas, people still have the ability to accept or reject that truth. This goes back to mental assent and different beliefs. Many people totally understand and even try and follow the Biblical moral code (think the Pharisees). But it still does them no good eternally if they aren't correct in salvation. They may be correct in morality, but not in their eternal destiny.

Hope that answers your question!
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What is Morality for the non jesus lovers?

Post by nnajuch on Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:35 pm

Well, what level of morality are we discussing? Because obviously Christians have different moral standards than the rest of the world, so how are we to choose which form to discuss? Talking about christian morality, i would agree with Plato. Because when following Christ's example accurately we won't be immoral. Yes, we all sin and make mistakes but being considered "moral" would obviously be our goal.

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Reply to LivvyT's post

Post by JACK ATTACK on Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:53 pm

Interesting thoughts Olivia! I have to ask you though, Based off your reasoning, can someone come to Christ even when we would consider them a immoral person? If they have no sense of morality, or at least a very warped version of it, how do they come to Christ? If you get what I mean Very Happy Just trying to keep the discussion going Very Happy
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Re: Gorgias Discussion Week #4

Post by egrabrick on Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:24 pm

JACK ATTACK wrote:Based off your reasoning, can someone come to Christ even when we would consider them a immoral person? If they have no sense of morality, or at least a very warped version of it, how do they come to Christ?

I would say that immoral people can come to know Christ, however, after they meet him, they would change their actions to glorify him. Take for example the story of Paul. I don't think anyone would consider him to be a moral person until God spoke to him on the way to Damascus. In fact, he called himself the worst of sinners. "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst." - 1st Timothy 1:15 (NIV)

Also, according to Luke 5:32 (NIV), Jesus came to save the immoral and ungodly, not the righteous and moral. "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

So I would say that an immoral person can come to know Christ. As to how they come to know Him, in rare cases it could be through dramatic supernatural means, as was the case with Paul. But in order for anyone, moral or immoral, to know God, He has to be calling them.
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Gorgias Discussion Week #4

Post by Isabelleagarcia on Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:02 am

I would have to say here that I agree with Plato. Morality is the distinction between right and wrong. How are we to choose something if we cannot fully understand that which is right, and that which is wrong. Lets use this scenario as an example; Your parents tell you don't touch the fire, or you will get hurt. Here you are faced to make the decision; don't touch the fire and stay safe from harm, or touch the fire and see for yourself what kind of hurt you will receive. You sit there and stare at the red and yellow glow. Its so beautiful and your naive mind is saying touch it! touch this beautiful red flower! But then you have your parents telling you to not touch it, they say it is hot and will hurt you, badly! After long contemplation we decide to spare ourselves the pain, and conclude to not touch the fire. We knew we should not have, why? Because we had the influence of our parents to guide us. Now lets bring this to God. Here we are faced with this, Choose to give up your life and follow Jesus, or keep living in sin and following the world. Now we have both "Parents" influencing us, we have God, and his number one influence is his word. Then we have Satan and his number one influence is the world. Without Morals how are we to distinguish that which is right. For all we know, the world appears to be more fun so why not choose it over God. With Morals we now have a grasp on right and wrong. We can finally in a sense weigh the pros and cons of each. We can make to conscious decision to follow Christ. I would like to point out though that God gave us morality so that we may choose him over the world, so that we may be able to grasp and understand that which is right. Its important to acknowledge that God gave us morality, but without it how are we to choose God?
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Questions for TheBatman

Post by Isabelleagarcia on Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:05 am

[quote="TheBatman"] The reasoning here is that nothing is more important than your eternal destiny. You can be a moral, unsaved person, and you will be separated from God for eternity. On the flip side, you can be an immoral, saved person, and even though your actions will be judged, you will still spend eternity in Heaven with God."
In response to what you have shared TheBatman, I would like to ask you this; How can you choose God without first knowing what is right and what is wrong. Ultimately yes, God chooses us, but we must also make a choice; To give up our lives and follow him, or to live in sin follow the world. Now when you said "you can be an immoral, saved person, and even though your actions will be judged, you will spend eternity in Heaven with God." When you are immoral you have no sense of right and wrong. How can choose to live your life for God? What stops you from living in the world? How do you first make the choice to follow God without first knowing what is right?
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“So far, about morals, I know only that what is moral is what you feel good after and what is immoral is what you feel bad after.” - Unknown

Post by _forsaken_secrets on Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:03 am

I agree with Plato, morality is the best and most important matter in the world to have correct views about. Morality Moral values help in improving behavior, instilling respect and enhancing relationships with others. Knowing what is right or wrong is an important element in life that shapes the character on an individual. Good moral values allows a person to make the right decisions and improve their interactions with other people. When you have morality you know what is right and wrong, we were given morality as soon as Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree. Conformity is doing what everybody else is doing, regardless of what is right. Morality is doing what is right regardless what everyone else is doing. Morality describes the principles that govern our behavior. Without these principles in place, societies cannot survive for long.

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Answering Isabelleagarcia

Post by TheBatman on Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:35 am

Isabelleagarcia wrote:How can you choose God without first knowing what is right and what is wrong. Ultimately yes, God chooses us, but we must also make a choice; To give up our lives and follow him, or to live in sin follow the world. Now when you said "you can be an immoral, saved person, and even though your actions will be judged, you will spend eternity in Heaven with God." When you are immoral you have no sense of right and wrong. How can choose to live your life for God? What stops you from living in the world? How do you first make the choice to follow God without first knowing what is right?

I would totally agree with you in that in order to get saved, we need to understand what we are saved from, hence understanding what is right and what is wrong. However, once we are saved, we can fall away and be lost in sin. We still struggle against our old nature (think Romans again Very Happy ). We never lose our salvation but we can still go against God's moral code. However, at the end of the day, it was still more important for them to get saved, even though they are living in the completely wrong way.

Now, even if you disagree with all that, the fact still remains that salvation is going to be the most important thing to get correct. Let's clarify the question one more time. It is asking whether morality or, by default, something else is the most important thing to have correct views about. I would still say that salvation is the most important thing. Why? Well, to borrow from a separate conversation I had with Jack (thanks man Smile ), putting morality as the most important thing means we are saying that the conviction (actually less than that, simply the mere understanding of right and wrong, not conviction) is more important than the actual choice for salvation. I simply think this is incorrect. People understand right and wrong from a Biblical perspective all the time and fail to get saved. People get convicted and fail to get saved (Herod is a perfect example). Ultimately, the choice to get saved is more important than understanding why you need to get saved. Your knowledge of the need for salvation does not do anything for you for eternity if you don't make the choice to get saved.

If that didn't make sense, I would go up to my answer to oprah_wind_fury's question to me. That answers the same question in a more complete way, and I felt like I was more clear there Very Happy

Thanks for keeping the discussion going!
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Reply to @JACKATTACK concerning the question he posed to me

Post by LivvyT on Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:45 pm

Good Question Jack! First, am I talking to Jack Schmidt or Jack Stusek?

Anyway, Yes I believe a biblically "immoral" person can come to Christ and through repentance and be made "moral" if you will. I don't see Morality as being a prerequisite to salvation, but a result of. Any filthy sinner can come to Christ, regardless of what they have done. Be it rape, murder, any of the serious crimes. Because the truth of the matter is, we are born with a sin nature. the question would like to ask you is, DO you think only moral people can come to christ? can christians actively participate in "immoral" acts and still be christians?
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Response to LivvyT's response to me

Post by JACK ATTACK on Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:33 pm

First off I just want to make it clear that this Jack Stusek (it wants to correct me last name status but oh well). Okay now to the main point. First I agree with you. A immoral person can become saved due to conviction, and then be molded into something new during there walk with God. But I believe that is only a small part of it. If we only value the beginning of our journey, then we cant move on in our walk with God. Granted morals are important, but not as important as the source of them. Which in our case, is God. And our relationship with him. Now on to your questions. I believe that moral, and immoral people can come to Christ, as I have already said. But I think if a person becomes a Christian and then makes no change, then they are Christians in name only. Who wear it like a badge, but without any significant difference behind it. So in answer to your question, if Christians are acting immorally and they continue to deny that what they are doing is wrong, then until they repent and get right with God, the word Christian, is just that, a word. They are still in the flesh. And acting in it. "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." - Romans 8:8 That is my opinion, And I hope what I said makes sense Very Happy
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Re: Gorgias Discussion Week #4

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